Permadeath or how the 'economy' will work?

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dondergod
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Permadeath or how the 'economy' will work?

Postby dondergod » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:47 am

Something that is not quite clear to me, is mostly how the 'universe' will work.
Perma-death in PvP and PvE matches is probably not the right thing to do. However, I would suggest to make that fleet separate to the universe fleet. So 1 (non-permadeath) fleet for PvP and PvE and 1 other fleet for universe.

But I mostly wonder what the take of the devs is on this? If you gain more ships, do you just keep those forever and do they repair when you dock with a station? Or will destroyed ships simply disappear forever?

I personally am in favour of losing ships forever. This will help create a more dynamic economy in the universe, where you can win 10 battles in a row, but still be losing the war due to too many losses in each battle or whatever. This also means that you can do 'real' damage to a faction or alliance.

But I would like to hear what the current take is on this from the developers? Is there a permadeath system? A rebuy system (rebuying being cheaper than buying completley new) or will you completely lose your ships forever?

Thanks in advance.

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diehard25
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Re: Permadeath or how the 'economy' will work?

Postby diehard25 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:57 am

Something that is not quite clear to me, is mostly how the 'universe' will work.
Perma-death in PvP and PvE matches is probably not the right thing to do. However, I would suggest to make that fleet separate to the universe fleet. So 1 (non-permadeath) fleet for PvP and PvE and 1 other fleet for universe.

But I mostly wonder what the take of the devs is on this? If you gain more ships, do you just keep those forever and do they repair when you dock with a station? Or will destroyed ships simply disappear forever?

I personally am in favour of losing ships forever. This will help create a more dynamic economy in the universe, where you can win 10 battles in a row, but still be losing the war due to too many losses in each battle or whatever. This also means that you can do 'real' damage to a faction or alliance.

But I would like to hear what the current take is on this from the developers? Is there a permadeath system? A rebuy system (rebuying being cheaper than buying completley new) or will you completely lose your ships forever?

Thanks in advance.
Hello there)

Very interesting question. If a don't mistake, permadeath is already implemented in a single session of Explorer mode. You take a current fleet, fight with pirates and other players, lost or take by boarding some ships, and a probability of succesfull run in EM is pretty small, if you would lose you ships.

Something interesting would be, if the middle results of session would be permanent (like if you lost a cruiser in some session, you will lost it from roster totally). I think, that king of permadeath would be pretty nice to many players)

Thanks for reading)
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dondergod
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Re: Permadeath or how the 'economy' will work?

Postby dondergod » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:33 pm

Yes correct, currently when your ships are dead you need to get back to the station, go out of universe and when you go back in you own them again.

This is however the thing I'm mostly talking about, it's not very 'permanent' this way, since you can get the back it just take some flying around. It does not cost you any resources or anything. When I say permanent I really mean gone forever. No way to ever get that exact ship back, other than buying a complete new one.

I'm also fine with a middle-ground where, once destroyed, you can buy them again for only 50% of the cost or whatever. The great thing about an RTS is that it's much easier to put permadeath in than in an RPG. A ship takes you only a few minutes to build up, where an RPG character takes months. The 'risk-reward' becomes a very interesting aspect of the game and it also makes it more rewarding for the losing party. In a last effort of the battle you use your burning capital ship to smash it into the much bigger enemy capital ship, destroying both in a huge blast costing tens of thousands of resources and lives.

That sounds much better than sending your burning capital ship to smash it into the much bigger enemy capital ship, destroying it and forcing your opponent back to base to 'respawn' it again.

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Re: Permadeath or how the 'economy' will work?

Postby grayknight » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:34 pm

I would not play mode that may resault in me loosing entire progress thanks to asteroids i belive its very wrong step and any form of permadeath outside of what is implemented now should not be the case.

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Re: Permadeath or how the 'economy' will work?

Postby relampago » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:55 am

We agree, that risk can be a really interesting component of the game. However, we'd like to leave these things as it is - with some risk only in Descovery mode. There might be some minor changes, of course. By the way - if you destroy all ships from the enemy fleet, you will be able to take all loot it had in the cargo (in discovery mode) - it can be a painfull loss and a good reward.
Can't say anything concrete about wars between clans and factions - but there definitely be different ways to do real damage or simly cause some sufficient inconveniences.
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Re: Permadeath or how the 'economy' will work?

Postby pwnstar » Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:49 am

There is a death penalty in Explore mode: You lose whatever that ship was carrying in the cargo hold. Having to also replace the ship is a bit much.

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Re: Permadeath or how the 'economy' will work?

Postby dondergod » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:07 am

Then I fear this game won't be for me. An RTS is all about attrition and economy mostly during times of war.
Without that it's not really an RTS for me. It will just be earning credits to buy even more and more ships and if you lose them all you can just get them back instantly. There is no real risk. I'm not a trader, I'm a fighter so I will hardly have any cargo hold except for what I have looted.

It also does not feel very realistic, the ships blow up so where do you suddenly get a new one from without paying for it? It's immersion breaking. You also won't have any real attachment to your ships. You won't really care if they live or die except that it's annoying that you have to go back to base.

I won't dismiss the game just yet, but it is a huge minus for me. I was hoping for a bit of a Eve Online feeling. Games are too forgiving in MMO worlds, turning them into grinding games. The only advantage of being good is that you can grind everything just a little bit faster.

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Re: Permadeath or how the 'economy' will work?

Postby diehard25 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:19 am

Then I fear this game won't be for me. An RTS is all about attrition and economy mostly during times of war.
Without that it's not really an RTS for me. It will just be earning credits to buy even more and more ships and if you lose them all you can just get them back instantly. There is no real risk. I'm not a trader, I'm a fighter so I will hardly have any cargo hold except for what I have looted.

It also does not feel very realistic, the ships blow up so where do you suddenly get a new one from without paying for it? It's immersion breaking. You also won't have any real attachment to your ships. You won't really care if they live or die except that it's annoying that you have to go back to base.

I won't dismiss the game just yet, but it is a huge minus for me. I was hoping for a bit of a Eve Online feeling. Games are too forgiving in MMO worlds, turning them into grinding games. The only advantage of being good is that you can grind everything just a little bit faster.
Hey, don't be so fast in your decitions)
look at the Content Roadmap) There are much of possibilities ti permanently lost Your ships)
It's an Early-Alfa stage, currently in game.
I'm definitelly sure the Developers would be implement a tons of possibilities to shoot your feet by yourself)
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Re: Permadeath or how the 'economy' will work?

Postby relampago » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:42 am

Then I fear this game won't be for me. An RTS is all about attrition and economy mostly during times of war.
Without that it's not really an RTS for me. It will just be earning credits to buy even more and more ships and if you lose them all you can just get them back instantly. There is no real risk. I'm not a trader, I'm a fighter so I will hardly have any cargo hold except for what I have looted.

It also does not feel very realistic, the ships blow up so where do you suddenly get a new one from without paying for it? It's immersion breaking. You also won't have any real attachment to your ships. You won't really care if they live or die except that it's annoying that you have to go back to base.

I won't dismiss the game just yet, but it is a huge minus for me. I was hoping for a bit of a Eve Online feeling. Games are too forgiving in MMO worlds, turning them into grinding games. The only advantage of being good is that you can grind everything just a little bit faster.
Well, in this case I advise you to wait for a ship progression system. Can't give you any concrete info about it at the moment, but I think you will care about your ships more.

Small note: Starfall Tactics is not a pure RTS. It's more a real-time wargame :) And you will have an ability to fight - fight to climb the ladder, fight in faction wars, fight in clan wars, fight on your way back home with looted stuff, and fight in many other ways - here, of course, I mean pvp.
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Re: Permadeath or how the 'economy' will work?

Postby dondergod » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:56 pm

To be honest, fighting for a generic spot in the ladder is one of the least interesting things there is for me ;). I like hard games. Only when you are forced to risk things, you can feel true reward when you accomplish something. The only browser-based RTS games that really caught my attention were 'Supremacy1914' and 'tribalwars'. In both games you can capture ground from the enemy and in the end, wipe a player off the playing field. Which means others can do the same to you. When it happens, sure you won't be happy about it, but at the same time it's what makes the game interesting. I like to be able to 'win'. Not a single battle, but something bigger.

It's why I overall don't like sandbox games, I need a clear goal. A place on a ladder, or 'improving your fleet' is not a clear goal. I want to rule the universe and even if I never succeed, I want to keep trying. I know many will probably disagreed with me, but I still like to try.

I have made a new topic with some new suggestions. Posted them here first but it was becoming so long I felt it was better to split them.


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